Episode 7: Vinny Prajka of JMI Equity
On How to Use ICPs and Segmentation as a Foundation for Scale

Episode Transcript

Shiv: Okay Vinny, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Vinny: Going well, thanks for having me, Shiv.

Shiv: Likewise, thanks for being on. Super excited to have you on to tell the JMI story. So why don't we start with you giving an introduction about the firm and then your role.

Vinny: Sure. So we're JMI Equity. We're growth equity investors. We're focused on B2B software companies. We've been doing this - the firm's been doing this about 30 years, always the same strategy. Software has been a great place to be. Being growth investors, if you think about where we sit in terms of company life cycle, we're investing in companies that have established product market fit and our job is to scale them. I'm an operating partner. I've been with JMI now just about nine years.

Shiv: And JMI as a growth equity firm, what's interesting about your portfolio is you're invested in some really large privately held companies like Clio, like UKG, like Seismic. And so maybe talk a little bit about your investment philosophy in terms of what types of companies you focus on or how you determine what's a good fit for your portfolio.

Vinny: Yeah, I mean, really for us, we're looking for businesses that, one, they're going to have a referenceable customer base when we invest. So they've got product market fit. They've got customers we can call on and really understand how is the company's products adding value to that customer base. We think about it as we are taking execution risk in those businesses. We got to scale them. We got to keep growing them. So that means either grow them more quickly than they're currently growing, or extend a growth trajectory that they're already on, right? Because businesses eventually will tend to top out and slow down. We want to extend that period of high growth. It's fine if it's a vertical market software business, focused very specifically on a particular industry. That's great. It can be horizontal. You mentioned Seismic, right? Selling to all different types of companies. And we really want to partner with strong management teams, particularly a strong leader. We invest in a lot of founder-run businesses. So for us, it's really important we get alignment on what are we trying to do over the next three to five years, most importantly in the next 12 to 24 months, to build a foundation for prolonged growth.

Shiv: And how do you go about building that foundation in your role? Obviously in an operational capacity, you're plugged in with a lot of these companies, but is there a standardized playbook that you're taking all investments through or building a more customized approach?

Vinny: So I would classify our model as highly flexible. We believe growth looks different in every company. And all of these businesses are changing really, really fast. There are foundational things that every B2B software company must do, but that will be customized for the particular business. So what we're focused on is talking about the ‘what’ and the ‘why’. The ‘how’ is really up to the company. So we're not gonna walk in with a standardized playbook. But there are things that every company needs to do. I mean, we're very fortunate. We've made over 180 investments over our history. We've gotten to work with some really talented people and we learn from every company, big and small. They're all doing something really well. And my job is to take those best practices and share them with the portfolio and also hopefully help our companies see around corners. We wanna keep growing. We also want to keep sucking risk out. And how do we do that? Well, we're sharing things that our companies and we at JMI have gotten wrong in the past. The goal is not to make the same mistakes again. Doesn't mean we're not gonna make any mistakes. We certainly are. When you're going this fast, you gotta be iterative. But it's identifying them, learning from them, and moving on.

Shiv: Right, right. And that sounds great. So I want to jump into each of those. So let's start with the foundational elements. What are some of the pieces that you try to ensure are in place with every single company you're investing in?

Vinny: I mean, one of the things we want to do right off the bat is really clearly identify the ICP, the ideal customer profile. Who are we selling to? Who's going to get the most utility out of the company's products? And what that could result in is doubling down in that market or those markets. So market segmentation is really, really important. And I'll give you an example. We invested in a business that was a product lifecycle management software company. What does that mean? Well, it's a place where you store and track the bill of materials for complex manufacturing businesses. And this company was selling to about 11 different industries. And it turns out when you're really digging into the data, two of those industry verticals were driving the bulk of the revenue. Those verticals retained better and they cost less to service. And they were big markets. They were big enough for us to build a really valuable company. So we got aligned with the senior management team and got the company focused on just those two industries and cascaded that throughout the business. So what that meant was sales team focused on those two verticals, splitting the sales team. All of our marketing efforts on those two verticals. We took hand raisers elsewhere, but all of the defined effort on those segments of the market. The company even took quotas up, between 20 and 40% over two years. Now that's pretty substantial. And more sales reps hit their number during our hold. And what does that mean? It means those sales reps also made more money, right? And they sold better business. So where do we end up? We got a lower customer acquisition cost. We had stickier customers who are - they got high NPS, they're gonna stick around, they're gonna buy more from us, it's also gonna drive net revenue retention. So you end up with a business that is gonna continue to grow, but also is gonna get profitable as well, walking its way to rule of 40. It was a really great outcome for the management team and for JMI.

Shiv: Yeah, that's the interesting thing about segmentation, right? Because a lot of companies, even horizontal ones or verticalized ones, they try to be everything to everyone and really understanding which customers are either your NPS promoters or stay with you the longest and have lower churn rates or end up expanding their accounts with you over time. Really digging into the data and understanding that is a key first step. So is that kind of how you identified those first two industry verticals or were there metrics that you looked at in particular.

Vinny: No, absolutely. It was really about looking at where are we generating pipeline? What are the ASPs on those customers? You also oftentimes will find because you are providing substantial value to that customer base, you can sell at a higher price. They're willing to pay more.

Shiv: Right.

Vinny: What I found in some of our companies - this actually happened at UKG where early on - this is years ago - but sales reps were able to sell to all industries and the best sales reps were self-selecting into certain industry categories. And why? They got very good at telling customer stories. And a prospect wants to hear about, why is someone who looks and acts like me, how do they get value out of your solution? I can understand that. Speak my language. And we found these reps, that were the highest performing reps, were focused on just doing a couple of things well and replicating that over and over and over. Sell at a higher price; less discounting; also increases sales cycles. It all hangs together.

Shiv: It's all connected. Yeah, I think that's a really interesting part is really identifying that ICP has a domino effect across all functions of the business. So, understood, first step is clearly defining that ICP and who's your ideal customer. As a next step, is then the work going into segmentation and understanding how big the TAM is within those ICPs?

Vinny: Yes. So then you're going to think about a couple things. So, one, is TAM large enough? How am I going to staff against that TAM? And how quickly do I want to move? And then we're going to start thinking about, do we want to go hunter-farmer in this market? Do we want to go big, small? Maybe there's SMB, maybe there's micro below that, maybe there's enterprise above that. And that's really going to depend upon - I think, about segmentation in terms of buyer journey. What is the purchasing process at those companies? Different - I mean, some of this is obvious - but different in larger companies and smaller companies. I mean, sometimes we're working with a business and we find that they've got an excellent product, by far the most innovative product in their space. And they'll talk to both large and small companies the same way. And what happens is, those smaller companies, that's great that you have all this functionality, your product can do all those things, but you know what? That scares me. I mean, I don't know if you've - you know, Matt Dixon, it's probably been about a year now, but wrote that Jolt book, right? It's all about fear of change. And people are afraid of making the wrong decision. If we present too much, they may be fully convinced that is the right product, I'd love to own that. But that implementation scares the heck out of me. The change management's really, really important. We gotta be thinking about that. We segment the market not just by vertical, but also by customer size, by buying process, maybe by use case. What are they using our product for? And thinking, always thinking about that customer journey.

Shiv: But as you get more defined in terms of the people that you're going after, technically your TAM could shrink, right? Because before, maybe the company wasn't as aggressive with their ICP definitions, and so there were way more targets. So I think managing those internal expectations that, hey, it looks like your TAM or SAM or SOM is smaller, but your likelihood of winning here is significantly higher. And you mentioned earlier that you actually ended up increasing quotas. I think managing that expectation internally is a key part of making that a reality.

Vinny: Absolutely. We’ve got to be data-driven. So, oftentimes, a TAM too is defined or people will define it based upon what is my average selling price today. One - that can change over time. We've proven that. As I just mentioned, if the product is better suited to a particular customer base, you may find significant price elasticity in that customer set. But then also, what is the next product? Where have we earned the right to sell the next product or the next use case to that customer set. And what we should be thinking about is walking that customer through that journey with us, right? Land and expand. We may have that product in our bag today, we may not. And then we're thinking about, are we gonna buy a build partner to get it? But if we've earned the right to sell more to that customer base, which you will, if they're happy with our service and we're adding value, you know, new products into that same customer segment is TAM expanding.

Shiv: Right. Yeah. And you said something earlier that also resonated with me is just that many times there could be a company with the best product in a marketplace, but they don't win necessarily because their ICPs and segments aren't defined. And then when they're going to market, they're targeting all these different segments or different deal sizes the same. And so they don't end up winning against oftentimes inferior products that have better go to markets.

Vinny: Well, exactly. I mean, it's easy to get outsold, right? You're hiring a lot of people. They're doing 14 different things. I mean, anything you read - context-switching is hard. It's hard for a customer. It's hard for a sales rep. So when you're - you know, if it looks like a duck and, you know, walks like a duck, it's a duck. So like, just spending more time replicating what you're doing is a lot easier for your salespeople. And that's not just your frontline rep, your BDR, your marketing organization, all that. It's a lot easier to get outsold.

Shiv: Right. So let's talk about some of the other areas that this ends up affecting. So once you get the segmentation and the TAM and the ICPs in a good place, how does this connect to the actual sales organization structure and the territory planning and all of that work that comes from the segmentation?

Vinny: Yeah, so I mean, we're focused on what is the opportunity of a particular territory. The hope is that we're going to have balanced territories. If your quarters are going to be relatively similar across your sales rep - let's just say it's the US - how do we carve up the US in such a way that we're going to have balanced territories? A lot of times that - you might more often than not end up with a named account model. If you're selling to a particular industry, as an example, versus a purely geographic model. And you're rebalancing that every year. And I think one of the things that's really important is being able to sit across the table from a sales rep as you're - hopefully, it's like January 1st and not February 15th - but as you enter the year and hand them one sheet of paper that illustrates, here's how you can make your number in this territory. This number of accounts, this ASP, maybe it's different flavors of deals or different products, but credibly multiple ways to get to quota without having to go sell 50% of your available market.

Shiv: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then in terms of tying that to the overall objectives of the business, is there enough work done also at the financial level to say - let's say you wanna book 10 million in bookings – how that ties to the territory planning?

Vinny: Well, I mean, you're working backwards, right? In terms of what's my sales capacity, how do I feel about that sales capacity? Because you've got not only what is the opportunity in a territory, but how much work goes into closing a deal? Just how much can one rep conceivably get done realistically in a month or in a quarter, whatever the cadence of your business is? And you're going to look back at historical sales cycle and maybe there's reasons why they should speed up. Maybe there's reasons why ASP should be going up. I mean, you got obviously price increases, but also more in the bag. Your average deal size can increase just because now every customer I sell is not buying 1.2 products at initial sale, they're buying 1.4 products on average. And if you could show a salesperson a path to that. And then, of course, you just need the... Once you're comfortable with that productivity on a per-rep basis, do I have the utter capacity to hit my number? Yeah, most of our companies probably have 80% allocation of over assignment of quota. So basically - and that's because, obviously, not everyone's gonna hit up 100% of their number, but also you're gonna have some turnover in sales. And that's the buffer for the sales manager, right? Make sure you got your seats filled, but you've got some of that buffer as you go into the year.

Shiv: Right, right. And you touched on something else there, which is on the product and the pricing and the packaging side. So talk about the work that's going into that, because as you're defining your ICPs and the market that you're going after, likely, yeah, they're going to buy more from you or they're better fit for what you're selling. So their ASPs will be likely higher. And so what type of modelling and prep work is going into that to truly understand the dollar value of the TAM, the new segment that you're going after?

Vinny: Yeah, I think, I mean, we can do - it's a whole different, I think it's a whole different podcast on pricing and packaging.

Shiv: Yeah.

Vinny: But I mean, you're looking at different combinations of what customers have been buying previously, which customers buy certain products, how sticky - when those products are sold together - is that customer base. And then also, when I say stickiness, sometimes when you line item products on an invoice, they get dropped. So maybe you want to bundle certain things. Maybe you want to bundle certain things because you know for a fact, if the customer buys A and B, they're going to be more successful. Sell that package, talk about it as a package. You need to have both of these products in order to get done what you in particular are looking to get done. Buy our gold package or whatever you want to call it. Now obviously it's got to be credible. You got to be able to look to customers. If you're going to look at - I think about it all as a salesperson. You can convince a salesperson they can sell it. They can sell it. So you got to be credible and be able to point to reference customers where it's actually working.

Shiv: Right, and that speaks to the amount of analysis required, right? Because there's the external segmentation and that type of work that's going on, but then there's also internally looking at the existing customer base and looking at their behavior and which subsets are buying what and how much are they buying. And really building that into the sales plan is likely a better way to ensure success.

Vinny: Absolutely. I mean, you've, you need - I mentioned earlier - you need reps to be able to tell customer stories. Yeah. You obviously need referenceable customers. They can say it themselves, but if you can tell credible customer stories, you are going to reduce the risk of change for your prospect. You're going to increase your sales cycle and increase the probability of winning.

Shiv: How much of your role, Vinny, is going into that work? Because that's taking customer analysis and research and then funnelling that through to either product marketing or sales enablement teams so that you have that right content to be able to enable the sales reps to be able to go to market to net new accounts. And there's a ton of product marketing work there required in terms of messaging and positioning and that type of stuff, but then also the success stories and the metrics and what types of outcomes customers can expect. How plugged into that are you and what types of solutions or recommendations are you making to your companies?

Vinny: It really - so how plugged in we are, the type of work we do really depends upon the business. So as these businesses grow, roles are becoming more and more specialized within the company. And because they're growing so fast, there's always going to be gaps in the employee base at the business, just because things are changing so fast, many different types of people and roles are created. That's the great thing about a growth business - tremendous amount of opportunity for employees because the business is getting bigger and there's so much more to do. So there are times where we'll invest in a company and like they might not have a sales office person. It might have been the sales leader or the head of inside sales that's doing all the analytics themselves. And then that person is creating their own territories. So we might roll up our sleeves and really be hands-in, analyzing all the data and making a suggestion on what the territories for next year should be to the sales leader. That's because that person doesn't exist. At the same time, we're working to, you know, we're recruiting for a sales ops person. Other times their company already has the infrastructure. So what are we doing there? We could just be a reviewer where, you know, come share something back. Let's talk about it. Maybe we're putting a little bit of pen to paper or just, you know, a complete sounding board, like, ‘here, here's my story to the rep. What do you think about this? Does this sound incredible?’ I have that kind of conversation with heads of sales or sales managers all the time, just role-playing, right? If you can convince me, you can convince the rep. And other times we're just making introductions to portfolio companies. You know, who's in a similar market? Who just launched their second product, right? Who just raised prices 10% or went from a modular model to a bundled model, you know, a good, better, best type of model. Let me talk to a couple of heads of marketing and a couple of CROs in the portfolio. And we do that all the time. Like, 45 portfolio companies, we're really fortunate that we've got this knowledge base we can draw on to let the companies learn from each other. They don't just need to hear it from JMI. It gets back to telling customer stories. You know, hear it from your peer who's in your shoes. So really we're flexible in terms of how deep we're going and what work we're actually doing. Sometimes it's - we're actually doing the work. We look like a member of the team. Other times it's providing some high-level advice. And at the end of the day for us, it depends upon what does the company need? But I think more importantly, Shiv, it's what does the company want?

Shiv: Right.

Vinny: Or more of a whole model where there's this menu of resources available to you. We can come in and get deep if that's what you want and what you need, or we can be really high level and we're here on call, more like a help desk, call us when you need us.

Shiv: Yeah, and how much of the work there is actually connecting the company with the right people or putting people in the right seats? As an example, when you figure out your TAM and who you're kind of going after, you can have more enterprise go-to-market companies that have a very limited segment of the market that they're going after and they need to do heavy account-based marketing or sales and do almost one-to-one outreach. And the team you require there is very different than more of like an inbound model where it's high velocity and you have a very large TAM, right? So how much of that work is actually just getting the right people in the right seats to support these?

Vinny: I mean, that's a - we spent a lot of time recruiting for our businesses. And so we've got - there's a person on my team that attracts all of our networks. So our goal is to try to get, you know, like anyone's goal, get good people into the company fast. Hopefully, there's somebody we've worked with in the past that could fill that role. But if not, just knowing the right recruiters and, you know, knowing who we can get to quickly. And we're looking for people that have had exposure to similar situations in the past, as you mentioned. What is the velocity of the sales model? What are the sales cycles? How complex is the sale? Is it a high-touch sale? Is it more PLG? Are there free trials involved? And what's nice is we've got to access the companies that have done all of that. Some are doing both SMB and enterprise, but as I mentioned, just two different sales segments and you probably got two different - you probably got a sales manager managing an SMB team, a sales manager managing an enterprise team. And then as we think about introductions, we're always thinking about who is most appropriate as a result of their experience at a current portfolio company or prior experience, introduced to this executive based on what they need. That's probably gonna be most likely, as you mentioned, based upon velocity, ASP, and customer user, what do they look like?

Shiv: Which roles in your experience - and we come across all kinds of companies that are owned by private equity, and we see major gaps in data, for example, or demand gen and places where we're brought in. But overall, when you're looking at these businesses, which areas do you see almost like a resource gap or a personnel gap where there's just not enough brain power in the right seats to be able to take the company to the next level?

Vinny: So the answer is it depends. We invest in some companies that they may not have a middle layer of sales management. Like it's a head of sales and it's 15 reps. That doesn't work. You can't manage 15 people. Or you certainly can't manage them appropriately. So one of the key roles, I think, in any software business, one of the most important roles is the frontline sales manager. That's the person that's coaching the reps every day, providing direction, also holding reps accountable for what they need to do. So, critical role - sometimes there's not enough of them, sometimes they're just not trained appropriately. You get into this cycle of my best rep becomes a manager. Okay, so now I've lost that capacity and I've never really taught them what it means to be a sales manager. So, really, really important. I think about, like, Ted Williams, greatest hitter who ever lived, wasn't a great manager.

Shiv: Right.

Vinny: Couldn't communicate that. The other place I see too, oftentimes, where the role just doesn't exist - and we're investing in a lot of 20 to 40 to $50 million software companies - product marketing. Critical role and gets overlooked - maybe not overlooked too often, but I think hired too late too often.

Shiv: Right. Yeah, we've seen that too, where a company can grow to 20, 30, 50, even $100 million. And if they have multiple product lines, somebody to actually tell the overarching story and get the messaging really on point so that when sales goes to market or demand gen programs are in flight, you're actually sending the right messages to the right folks.

Vinny: Exactly. And it's, you know, it's normally - who's going to do this? Well, product marketing. We don't have product marketing.

Shiv: Right.

Vinny: And it's not an easy role to hire for. I mean, finding good people, really good product marketers is not that easy. So we're starting to keep a list. And we do a - we've got slack groups for like all of our CMOs. And we do monthly discussion groups by functional areas. And we talk about things like this all the time. I find that we're really fortunate. Our portfolio kind of feels a little bit like a college alumni network. They're very willing to share, which is great. So it's been really helpful, but it's an interesting pattern. I mean, I just find a lot of people are looking for product marketers.

Shiv: Yeah, I definitely think it's a unique skill set. And even in our engagements with the PE-backed companies, usually product marketing has not historically been a big part of engagements, but over the last like 24 months, it seems to be a part of almost every other engagement that we work on, especially as M&A ramps up, you see that as a major area that needs to be worked on because you need to tell a broader story.

Vinny: Exactly.

Shiv: Yeah. Talk about some of the other avenues that you're looking at in terms of scaling the businesses beyond just segmentation or building out the sales program. Like what else ends up moving the needle, at least from the from the vantage point where you are and where you're getting plugged into these companies?

Vinny: Yeah, I mean, we're looking… an interesting software business for us, right? So they're all recurring, of course, because they're all they're all SaaS businesses. They're growing really fast. But it probably has really solid gross margin - you know, 75% plus gross margins. But you got to continue to drive that best in class, you know, 90% plus gross retention rate at scale. So going back to segmentation, not only is your front end sales and marketing need to be segmented, but customer success as well. And that segmentation not only around use case and customer size, but we think about there are customers that are generating a certain amount of revenue. It's a lot of revenue. Obviously, they require more care and feeding. We've got to protect that base. What about high-potential customers? You may have customers that are lower revenue for the company today but high potential - we should be investing in those customers. So I think about it as a pyramid. The top of the pyramid is big revenue or big opportunity. And our staffing models are going to look different. How we interact with those customers has got to look different. Bottom of the pyramid - low revenue, low opportunity. You're going to staff against those customers differently. Obviously, we want to keep them all, but we can't spend as much time with them. So we spend a fair amount of time in customer success. And then also just... You know, early in a customer - oftentimes, not always - early in a company lifecycle, people solve things with bodies, just keep throwing bodies at it. And those bodies then buy their own software and we end up with a bunch of siloed software systems and how do you connect all that and build a technology backbone in a company that's going to make all of those individuals more efficient so you can stop throwing bodies at it? I think about it as, you know, you can grow with just more capacity and you keep growing. Scale? In order to scale, you need to get more efficient. So how do you do more with the same? That is scaling.

Shiv: And how do you do that in terms of your role? How are you either coaching your companies or bringing some of these best practices to them? Because efficiency is really the name of the game, right? Especially when you look at things like rule of 40 or driving EBITDA in a private equity-backed environment. Like how are you coaching these guys to drive that kind of efficiency regardless of if it's sales or marketing or other areas of the business?

Vinny: Well, I mean, going back to the what and the why, it's obviously talking about what our best companies do, but also showing them being data-driven, showing some benchmarking data. Like your cost of acquisition against all these other vertical market software businesses is so much higher. Why is that? There may be reasons why. We may be investing into growth to suck up a bunch of market share because we're, you know, it's... 12 to 15-year replacement cycles, these customers aren't coming around again, whatever it is. But we need to convince ourselves why those metrics look different. So sharing that data and having a real discussion - our strategy may be, we're gonna overspend in these areas. That could be fine. I mean, the nice thing about a real high-quality business is we can choose how profitable the business is. I mean, if it's got good gross margin and a sticky customer base, you can mess with op-ex and make that business really profitable. So profitability then becomes a choice and we got to make sure we're making that choice together. And I think on the tech side, you know, sometimes it's just like, let's line up all the software the company owns and it can be eye-opening when they actually go out and figure out. I put it on a piece of paper. Sometimes I'll even use security as a lever to get some of that done. I'm sorry, it's a little bit of a secret, but you know, you've got all these different software programs people are logging into that are touching your network. Are they secure? Do you have multifactor authentication? I don't know, right? We should look at that. All of a sudden you end up with a list. It's like, wow, we're paying 120 different vendors. It's on credit cards. No one really knows.

Shiv: No one pays attention. It's crazy. We've seen companies have multiple software platforms that they don't even use on the marketing side, but they're on a recurring subscription, right?

Vinny: Exactly.

Shiv: And it adds up. If you take each subscription at 10, 15, 20K, easily you get to a hundred thousand plus and budget that's just being wasted.

Vinny: Absolutely. And you think about it, right? That's a customer support person.

Shiv: Yeah, yeah, easily. And it can be a couple of headcount if you get to four or 500K. So yeah, I think that's great. And one of the things that's jumping out as I'm hearing you talk is just JMI is spending a ton of effort into having its portfolio companies share best practices, knowledge, benchmarking data, like all of this stuff in order to make all those companies become more efficient and just operate better overall.

Vinny: Yeah, I mean, we do. I mentioned before it's more of a pull model. We've got a number of - I'll call them opt-in programs. We've got a content repository that people can log into to find templates and all sorts of best practices. And then, like I said, we do the monthly discussion groups. We do a couple of webinars a month. We bring all of our CMOs together once a year, all of our CFOs together once a year. A lot of the content - it's a day and a half networking and sharing session. A lot of the content is portfolio company driven. What's really interesting that other companies are doing, or what's some big challenge that someone else solved? One of the real benefits from only doing growth software is they've all got the same challenges.

You'll find even little companies - not only little companies learning from big companies, but the other way around too, like I said earlier. Everyone's doing something really, really well. And some companies have really novel approaches to things. And just hearing that might trigger an idea in someone's mind. Like, we had eight or nine companies come together just to talk about executive business reviews. How do you do them? What do you think you do well? What are you concerned about? And it sparks so much creative thought in each of the companies that are listening.

Shiv: Yeah, it's really the people and all the different experiences that they're bringing to the table. I think by just creating that forum, you're giving those companies an opportunity to get exposed to innovative practices within the portfolio itself. So I think that's great. I think that's a good place to end the episode. But before we finish things off, is there anything, any place that people can go to learn more about JMI or yourself or the portfolio?

Vinny: Mainly just our website, jmi.com is where you can see our portfolio there. I think we've got some examples of some of the recent networking things that I mentioned, summaries of those and things we've talked about.

Shiv: Awesome. Yeah, we'll definitely be sure to include those in the show notes and Vinny, thanks a lot for doing this and appreciate you doing the episode

Vinny: Thank you, great to be here.