Episode 52: Tim Strickland of Summit Partners on Fostering a Culture of Data, Accountability and Alignment

Episode Transcript  

 Shiv: All right, Tim, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Tim: Shiv, great, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Shiv: I’m doing great and excited to have you on. Obviously you're at Summit now and previously you were the CRO of Zoom Info. So I'm excited for the audience to learn from you. But why don't we start with your background and then we'll take it from there.

Tim: Yeah, great. Like you mentioned, I spent four years at Zoom Info prior to joining Summit. The last year that I was there, I was the Chief Revenue Officer, so responsible for all bookings, new logo, customer, the SDR business, our emerging products, channel sales, and sales enablement. And then prior to that, spent three years kind of building out our account management and emerging sales functions. And then prior to Zoom Info, spent four years at Marketo, both as a private and publicly held company before we sold the business to Adobe ultimately, where I was responsible for customer success, account management, and then North America Enterprise Sales.

Shiv: Yeah, and through that experience, obviously some of these are some of the largest martech companies or sales companies out there. Talk a little bit about that experience and how that shaped how you look at companies and how you're bringing that to Summit now.

Tim: Yeah, that's actually a really good question. When I was at Marketo, and I'll take you all the way back, when we were a publicly traded company, the business was growing. I think I joined there, Shiv, when it was about $90 million in revenue and 400 employees. And over the course of my four years there, before we sold it to Adobe, we'd grown it to about $400 million in revenue. But for the years that we were public, we were running kind of adjusted margin negative. So we were not making money. We were still growing the business, but we were not a profitable business. And then when Vista bought us kind of halfway through that four year run, maybe three years into that four year run, we made a shift and made profitability sort of one of the businesses objectives. And we actually re-accelerated revenue kind of coming out of the last year of running the business as a publicly traded business, but we also cleaned up the bottom line. And I learned a lot from the CFO kind of in that transition process. And so we got the business to growing faster, but we also got it to cash flow breakeven. And so that was kind of the first time in my career where I really, as a sales leader, focused on efficiency and how we drove bottom line performance in addition to top line. And then when I got to Zoom Info, I think I was well positioned kind of having that experience because that business had always run efficiently. I think when I joined, we were growing in the high 30s percent year over year, but we were running the business with 50% margin. So a ton of free cash flow. And then over my time there, we kind of, we transitioned the margin profile from 40% growth, 50% margin to 50% growth, 40% margin, but we were still very bottom line conscious. And the reason for that shift was during my time at ZoomInfo, you know, we wanted to run an official business, but we wanted to do it so that we could buy companies and pay debt service. And so the only way that you could do that is by generating free cash flow. And so I've kind of taken that profitable growth mindset and operating experience to Summit where we're very much focused on organic growth, growth through M&A, but doing it with a line to profitability. And so it's been a really nice transition for me actually.

Shiv: Yeah, it's interesting to hear you bring that up. We constantly are preaching to our clients and just the market in general, this idea of making sure you are growing responsibly and sustainably with an eye on EBITDA margins and rule of 40 and all of those things. And it's kind of counterintuitive because it feels like if you're trying to grow as quickly as possible, you have to keep putting a lot of acquisition dollars behind that. And a lot of companies end up going upside down on that span in trying to chase that growth. But in our experience, when you start with that foundation of like making sure you have the right data infrastructure, you're tracking your span, you're measuring what the ROI on your dollars is, it actually helps you grow faster because you become more disciplined and you start to understand where is the best place to deploy your additional capital? Where is that additional margin going to come from as you deploy every additional dollar? And having that discipline is something that even large companies lack, like you mentioned, like Marketo. So talk about that data side and how that brings all of this together.

Tim: Yeah, 100%. My, I mean, my charter at Zoom Info, along with the COO who I reported to as we were growing from, during my four years there, and we grew inorganically as well, but we grew the business from about 175 million all the way up to 1.2 billion. And so doing that in a way Shiv, to your point in an efficiently and trying to find areas of the business that we hadn't yet scaled, that needed to scale in order us to drive the revenue trajectory scale that we needed, but also do it in a way where we were getting two, three, four, $5 back for every dollar that we spent. That was literally not my entire job, but it was a big portion of it. It's trying to find little pockets of the business that were underdeveloped, where we were still getting really high return on investment that we could then go scale. And so we did that through, you know, several different means, but a lot of it was just like trialling different things at a very low spend rate to understand what worked and what didn't. And then taking the things that did and scaling those. But it was also working really closely with our marketing partners who were doing a lot of investment on different channels, different products, keyword search, kind of all over the digital landscape to understand, hey, where can we drive velocity? Where can we do that with high quality? And then how can I take the high quality and convert that at reasonable rates? And so we were looking at that Shiv on a daily basis, if not in some cases by the hour to understand how our investments were playing out in real time.

Shiv: Yeah, at that scale, you definitely have to be looking at those numbers daily or if not hourly because there's just so much information that's coming in. We work with some folks that are checking their numbers sometimes weekly, sometimes monthly. And that feedback loop is just way too long before you're learning that and making adjustments, integrating the learnings. And before you know it, like, you've missed the opportunity or a competitor has kind of captured it.

Tim: 100%. There, I mean, there were scenarios where we would go out and try to open up new markets or where we were even Shiv investing on known markets where something would break. And if we didn't know it, we were just literally flushing money down the toilet. And so we had to be very aware of the dollars that were being spent and what was happening, happening kind of immediately after those dollars were being spent in order to maximize investment. If we did that on a weekly or monthly basis, our operating margin would have dropped from 40% to like 10.

Shiv: Totally, totally. And at the time, I know Zoom Info is public now, but TA was your major majority investor, right? 

Tim: Yeah. Yeah, T.A. and Carlisle Group.

Shiv: Yeah, so we've done a ton of work with the TA guys and they're very much on those numbers, right? So you kind of have to be on top of that if you're going to be at a senior leadership level. It reminds me of a different story. Previously, I was the CEO of a software company and there was a time when, so we would check our trials and paid accounts on a daily basis. And if we hadn't done that, there were several times throughout that journey where there would be a day when trials would plummet or our conversions to paid would plummet and you'd have to diagnose it very quickly because if you you miss that you're going sometimes a few weeks or a month and you can easily have a bad quarter without that discipline. So let's talk about that culture of data a little bit and what types of metrics you're tracking daily, weekly to just stay on top of those things?

Tim: Totally. Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the kind of highest level, we were looking at leads, which most of which in our new logo business were inbound. We were looking at MQLs. So what of those leads, which ones were we sending to reps? We were looking at demos. So of those leads that got sent to reps how many demos did we actually get? Of those demos, how many of them converted into opportunities? Of those opportunities, how many did we actually send contracts for? And then of those contracts that we sent, how many of them turned into wins? And then as we got kind of larger and we were selling more products and we changed up our packaging, we were also monitoring of those wins, what percentage of those were coming in single product versus multi-product, which of those were coming in in our kind of base level package versus our premier package. What was our ASP mix as a result of that so that we could dial spend in different places at different points in time. But to your point, minor website adjustments could have an impact on lead flow, right? Our routing tool, when we would get leads that would distribute MQLs to salespeople, sometimes that would break. And if that broke for two days, you could kiss the month goodbye, right? And so we had to be in a position where not only did we see that, but then we could have our management teams take action to recoup those lost leads in many cases in 24 hour periods so that we weren't missing weeks or months.

Shiv: Yeah, and a lot of the metrics that you're describing are standard, right? Like every company's leads and MQLs and SQL opportunities and closed won, but it's more about this culture of data tracking and having everybody in the organization understand that that's important and be on top of their respective domains. So like, how did you build that into the organization? Because I think that's something that even lot of our listeners or their portfolio companies just don't have that culture built. And so how are you implementing that?

Tim: Yeah. I was fortunate in my role because Shiv, that was top down. That was CEO driven. And, you know, fortunately for us, our CEO was also our founder. 

Shiv: Yeah, it's Henry, right?

Tim: Yeah, Henry, so that, so that culture had been built into the business way before I even got there. So I can't take credit for it, but operationally how we managed it, was every week we were doing marketing forecast calls, right? So we were looking at the top of the funnel. Marketing had weekly and monthly goals that they had to achieve in order for us to get to our opportunity creation and bookings targets. We knew what those were. Every week, our CMO was responsible for a readout on the number of leads, number of leads by channel, number of MQLs, number of MQLs by channel. And then that meeting was also held hand in hand with our demos and opportunity created, forecast call, which was led by my SDR leadership who would say, Hey, now that we're getting all of these people coming in, raising their hands and wanting to talk to us, what are we doing with those? Where is our demo conversion falling down? Is it falling down in North America? Is it just in a particular segment in North America? Is it international? Is it just in a particular segment in international? What are we doing about that? How do we diagnose the issue? And if our demo numbers look good, how did our opportunity goals map to that? Were those falling down somewhere? And if everything looks pretty good, we would walk away from that meeting feeling pretty good about where we were. But if an hour after that meeting, something happened, we were kind of there understanding where we were in order to take action on.

But that was one of those meetings. I used to run bookings forecast calls every week with my team to look at where we were in month on bookings goals, where we were against our pacing goals, which we can talk about. Where we were against our pipeline goals for future out months. And every single one of my managers would have a readout on their individual businesses, their individual managers, their individual reps. And what trends they were seeing that was either holding them back or allowing them to capitalize and over deliver. And so those things were happening weekly. In addition to that Shiv, we would get a daily download from our ops team on where every single business line was, every single manager was, and every single rep was against their in-month and in-quarter target. And I would go through that every night and look at it and find the areas where people were behind and ask them why and try to help them figure it out.

Shiv: Yeah, it's almost like building an organism that understands all the components and there are people responsible and held accountable to certain metrics. It's not just one person's problem. Like if you're the CRO, it's not just your problem. There are countless people with their own respective KPIs and metrics that they're being held accountable to. And then all of that may roll into you, but if a problem emerges, you kind of know where to dig deeper and how to actually fix the situation.

Tim: Totally. And I think part of the culture too, Shiv, of accountability, which we can also talk about was, like my managers didn't want to hear from me asking what was happening. They had the same level of visibility that I had into their businesses. So they were responsible for proactively bringing me challenges that they were seeing based on the clarity that they had in their business and solutions to those, right? And then if they needed me to remove obstacles for them in order for that to occur, or if they needed me to go to marketing and say, hey, marketing, I need you to help spin up some campaigns in this like very strategic area of my business or this business that is falling behind, then I could do that. And marketing would jump on it within a matter of hours or days because they were also kind of, you know, wrapped into the same goals that we were.

Shiv: Yeah, it's, I'm so glad you brought that up is everybody wants this shared accountability or culture where everybody feels like they can contribute to the outcome, but that's really not possible without transparency. And I feel like in so many organizations, they just get this wrong where the CEO and the board have one set of information and they're thinking about profitability and targets in one way. Then the executive team has like a limited version of that. Then the people below the executive team are completely unaware of what's being planned above them. And so when it comes time, time to make decisions at the frontline and for all these individuals to actually make those pivotal decisions, they actually can't because they don't have all the context required to be able to make decisions. that eventually like it comes back up the chain and there's like a bottleneck. It's either the CEO or the executive team that is holding all the answers. So you kind of have this lead time of sending information up and then the information needs to come back down and before that cycle completes, it could be a week, it could be two weeks instead of being able to deal with it hourly or daily.

Tim: Totally. Totally, no, that's 100% true. And one of the, to your point about the bottlenecks and the timelines associated with making decisions in some cases, like my frontline managers, directors, VPs could reach out directly to marketing team members who supported their businesses and say, hey, this is what I'm seeing today. I need your help, right? Like they didn't have to come to me for that. Like I would ask them what's happening and they would say, Hey, we're seeing this. We're on it. We've already got such and such person who's helping us with this. Like this is what we anticipate over the next couple of days. Right. Or here's this other opportunity that we think might be able to close the gap because this thing that we're seeing is like a longer term trend. Here are the other things that we see that we feel like can bridge us for one week, two weeks, two months, three months. Right. So it was that level of accountability existed all the way up and down the organization and they had the transparency to make the decisions and they had my sign off to go make the decisions, right? They didn't have to come to me and ask. And then secondly, I think in terms of just organizational health, what that level of transparency also provides is a very, it's actually really healthy, I think for businesses. Is it doesn't allow one person to be responsible for the success of a business. Like Shiv, I was managing a 1200 person organization. If everything had to come through me, there's no way that we would be successful. 

Shiv: It's impossible, actually. 

Tim: Yeah, it's impossible. And it also allows for people to get promoted and like do things, right? Like it's, yeah, it's healthy for businesses to operate that way.

Shiv: Yeah, like this journey that you mentioned, 175 million to 1.2 billion, like that, kind of a journey can only happen if you have multiple business drivers. And when a company starts, the CEO is the main business driver. Fair enough. At some point they need an executive team. That's another layer of business drivers, but just that structure alone is not going to push you past maybe 25 million and 50, if you're lucky. At some point you need multiple layers below the executive team that are full of business drivers. And in order to get there, you actually have to have this culture of transparency and accountability and all of these things kind of go hand in hand.

Tim: For sure. And to your point, like what we would roll up to the board is the exact same thing that I would be talking to my team about every day. So it's not like when we were prepping for board meetings, I had to like do a bunch of research. We already had solutions to problems.

Shiv: Totally, yeah. it's, I think the other, so when we were building our last business, you know, we used to talk about this concept that accountability and freedom are two sides of the same coin, right? So you cannot have freedom without accountability. So if you want your own domain and you want to run things your way, then you have to be accountable for it. And on the flip side, if you don't want to be accountable for it, then you cannot be in charge of a domain and left to your own devices, right? And the truth is that A players value the freedom and accountability. So I think part of it is also from a hiring and onboarding and retention standpoint, who are you actually retaining in the business, keeping the people that are the right people on the bus, like kind of the good to great thing, right? So you want the A players to stay because that gives you continuity and it helps you grow the business faster and all of those things. So having the right people is a big part of that.

Tim: For sure. Yeah, don't get me wrong. We were very much a performance-based organization. But then kind of as people rise up through the management ranks, it kind of becomes, hey, who's performing, right? Like as the baseline. But then if, you know, and we had management training, so it was like that part was helpful, but it became. Hey, look, who's like in a frontline management role, if you're getting promoted from an individual contributor, who's doing a good job of like, of enabling all of their reps to perform, right? All of whom sell differently, all of whom have different styles. Who's like propping those people up and not forcing them to a single kind of style. When, when you're talking about kind of manager to director or you know, director to VP, what you're looking for those people who can not only do that, who can do it at scale, but the only way that you can do it at scale is by identifying broader trends in the business, right? And so giving those people the transparency to find those trends, then, but then proactively like asking for them to do it and building that muscle it's, performance based, but then it's kind of layering in a couple different things as those people get more senior in the organization to enable them to be successful, right? That's it.

Shiv: How much of it or how much did you guys or were you investing in the people in terms of training and leveling them up internally? Because I said earlier, continuity is such a huge part of this and the most successful organizations we've seen retain their people and they're there for an extended period of time to help grow the business through different phases. So just curious like how you saw the external hiring process versus growing folks internally.

Tim: Yeah, I mean, we would do weekly calls with managers and reps, right? We also, I think part of this is cultural Shiv in that we wanted people in the organization who wanted to grow their career, right? And like, if you wanted to grow your career, this was a place where you could go do that. But just kind of coming back. to your question like internal versus external hiring, in almost every case, unless we had like a dire business need for a new business that we didn't have any experience inside for, we wanted to promote internally, right? Like that started at the SDR level, SDRs to reps, SDRs to AMs, AMs would kind of go up the segment or they would move up the management chain. If we had the opportunity to promote people internally, that's what we were going to do. If we found that like, again, we didn't have the expertise for a new business that needed to get spun up, that's where we would go external. And then we would work with our recruiting partners to make sure that we had, you know, scope dialed in, qualifications dialed in. But yeah, we were very strongly oriented to promoting internally.

Shiv: And as you're promoting internally, like obviously there's a level of patience required, because sometimes the role might be bigger than a person is stepping into, you kind of need to grow in that. How much of that was based on, cause it's tricky, right? Like we meet organizations where they're struggling to hit their revenue targets or they're, they're missing board projections. And, in that type of an environment, it's harder to give people a chance to step up, even if you may want to from a cultural standpoint. Whereas Zoom Info you mentioned 50% margins, it's like a very healthy business, you're selling information in a lot of ways, right? So it allows you to have those kinds of margins. So how much is that part of it in terms of building a very healthy business model that has the margins that allows you to do that?

Tim: Yeah, I'll give you a for example, like, when, when I started at, at Discover Org before we acquired Zoom Info, we didn't have an account management organization, right? We had, had a customer success organization that was kind of doing everything, right? They were renewing, they were upselling, they were support escalation, they were relationship managing, they were kind of doing everything. And when I came in to kind of build the account management organization, I think Henry had deemed that like they didn't have that expertise in house. And that was a major growth lever for the business that they needed to bring someone in externally for. When I came into the business and did that, what I also found as we were trying to build out our enterprise sales organization was that we had a lot of really good people in the business, most of whom we retained, who were good at selling transactional deals, right? We did not have a leader or a lot of reps that could sell strategic deals. And so I leaned on the majority of the internal organization to drive the majority of the business for two years, while in a 12 month period, I hired an external leader to come build the strategic sales organization. I promoted half of that selling team from mid-market, from prior mid-market sales reps that were in the business. And then we hired half of the new rep base for our strategic selling organization from the external. And the reason why we thought that was a good mix Shiv is because we had people who had shown that they were capable, that we wanted to give the opportunity to go like build and earn and create wealth and create value for the business. But we needed somebody with experience running those cycles to come in and teach them how to do that. And then we also needed to hire some proven salespeople who also knew that motion, but didn't necessarily understand the culture of the business where our internal people did, to build the early version of that business that ended up becoming 30% of the business's revenue, right? Like, I think if you can kind of take that approach, particularly culturally, but supplementing it with industry experts, like there's some goodness that can happen there and we saw that. But to your point, you do have to have patience. That's where you have to lean on the things that you're really good at and outperform while those new businesses mature.

Shiv: Yeah, I think one of the things, the reason I said patience is just a lot of companies turn through their sales reps. They'll hire folks, give them six months, not enough pipeline built. Well, let's go, let go of this core and maybe hire somebody else. And you never really truly build momentum. I think the, that culture piece that we talked about, like of transparency and accountability and freedom. I think the underlying thing of that is just safety, right? So you need to have people that feel like they have the time to grow within the role and then be able to contribute with all those metrics that we're tracking daily hourly so that they can actually think about the business at that level. Because in general, I find that if you keep turning through people, you just don't have that institutional knowledge that's being retained.

Tim: Totally. Well, the other side of that coin, Shiv, I think is that if you're learning and trying to build momentum, it's way easier to do that and give yourself time, particular for the board or maybe for a founder or a CEO, if you're not spending money recklessly, right? Like if you're spending money inside of an envelope and you're giving initiatives time to pay off without over-investing, not knowing if they're gonna work, you'll get the time you need to build momentum. 

Shiv: That's 100% true.

Tim: But if you're over-investing, that time envelope shrinks.

Shiv: Totally, yeah, so that's a really great point. It's just that the role of the executive or the CEO is to make bets in the right order or the right amount and be able to communicate that to the board and buy the right amount of time required to see something through and kind of act like this barrier, right? Otherwise, if you kind of over promise and under deliver, that's when these kinds of sweeping changes happen.

Tim: Yes. Yes, 100%. Totally, totally. And there were areas of investment that we made during my time at both ZoomInfo and Marketo that were loss leaders, right? But you know that, you can track it and plan for it. There are early indicators that are gonna show you whether or not something has the opportunity to succeed or fail, right? If you can't show those, it's really hard to communicate that. And if you have proven businesses that you feel like you can over deliver on for a short period of time, then like that enables you to also have time. But yes, it is like you have to be able to make the right bets and give time for those to pay off, but you have to do it responsibly.

Shiv: Totally. we recently had, maybe think of something as we recently had Carta on our podcast. That episode isn't released yet, but it should be up by the time this episode comes out. 

Tim: Yeah, cool. It's a great business. Yep.

Shiv: Great business. And they released a report on employee compensation and how private equity is giving more RSUs and just stock options and other equity based compensations to employees. And you mentioned this idea of like giving internal employees the opportunity to create wealth. How much of that is at play here? Just so that you have aligned incentives, like, yeah, you have base and quote, quote, like variable comp and all that kind of stuff. But how much is the equity piece at play in terms of building a culture where everybody's aligned and working in the same direction?

Tim: Yeah, I think if you, if you look at at least the businesses that I've been a part of, or even some of the ones in the Summit portfolio Shiv that we've invested in, you know, where we've, where we've backed founders, like the many of the ones that are successful are the ones where early on the founders did a really nice job of finding ways outside of base and variable comp to get employees motivated around a singular goal. And that can look very different across businesses and how that gets planned for and how it ultimately gets compensated. But especially as you're kind of, as you're growing the business, allowing people to share in the upside of the business when they're making decisions on behalf of it is one way to get people excited about the future. And so we were constantly trying to identify leaders, managers, individual contributors who were outperforming their peers and giving them the opportunity to continue to build wealth and the culture of the business in kind of their own mini business. Again, like this goes back to transparency and accountability. If you're managing large organizations, it's really hard on a day-to-day basis to like get people primed and get people pumped. But if people have that opportunity to do it themselves and they can create many cultures inside of the business that are successful, it kind of just takes itself forward.

Shiv: Totally, and then they have that incentive to actually make that effort and put in that time. 

Tim: Of course.

Shiv: As you go through inorganic avenues and M&A and there's different teams from different business units and you're integrating those folks together, how do you retain that part of the culture to make sure these new businesses are also aligned and you're looking at cross-sell and upsell opportunities and other ways to create enterprise value together? How do you make sure the people side is also aligned around those objectives?

Tim: A lot of it, think Shiv is finding the leaders inside of the organizations that you end up acquiring or buying and finding those individuals who you can lean on. I've, I've mentioned, I think maybe another podcast or other discussions that building culture is not like a me thing. It's a we thing. And so I think particularly when you're bringing a business with its independent culture into a larger business that has one established also, you have to be able to identify and lean on the leaders inside of that newly acquired business that see kind of the value that you can create as a joint company and have them reinforce that message into their people so that they kind of come along on that journey with you. That's definitely my job, but you can only do it with other people initially who those individuals have full trust in, right? Because like I and my leadership teams have to earn that trust when we're bringing people into the business. The leaders who those people have reported to already have earned that trust. And so identifying those leaders and leaning on them is critical. And usually you can do that in the diligence. You don't have to wait until a deal closes. Like you know who those people are typically.

Shiv: Yeah, know it's really interesting is that even when we talk about growing companies, it's often the shiny strategy or acquisition that people talk about. But so much of it comes down to the getting the people side, right? Because they're the ones who actually are going to execute on everything that is being planned. And so many acquisitions, the value creation thesis behind it falls apart because you know, the right people or you're not tracking the right metrics. And, and so that like, how much of that do you think should be shifted or in terms of how people perceive some of these avenues for growth?

Tim: A lot. I mentioned earlier in our conversation that a lot of my job was like identifying areas where we could place a dollar and get multiple dollars back. The other part of my job was people. And it was the identification of people, understanding strengths and weaknesses. Where can we, where can we leverage internal talent? Where do we need external talent? like if you split my job 50-50, that's basically what it was. And it's interesting Shiv, because as I've come into the Summit portfolio, it's about 50-50 there too. Like I spend 50% of my time either selling new deals with our investment team or helping our portfolio companies kind of optimize their go-to market. The other portion of that is talent. And it's either helping recruit or helping validate that new individuals that we're bringing into organizations are going to be successful inside of those organizations.

Shiv: What are some of the most common people related problems that you are seeing from the Summit portfolio or the companies that you're encountering there?

Tim: I don't know that we're necessarily seeing problems. It's more for me, it's about how do we make sure that as we're investing in many times founder led companies that we're supporting those founding teams with the right executives who can help propel their business forward. It's mostly that.

Shiv: Yeah, I think that's what we've seen too. And when I say problems, people related like opportunities or areas that need to be optimized. And it usually starts with having the right leader in the right seat. On our side, it's usually marketing because that's what we do for our private equity partners. But it's always like, do we have the right CMO? Is this the right CMO to take us to the next level? And I imagine in your role, it's the same thing across sales and other domains.

Tim: It's a lot of that. It's, we have a CRO? Do we need a CRO? Do we need a VP of sales? Do we just need a director of sales? Like what should the organization kind of be, what should the organization that we create look like? Why? How do we think about investing? How should our new executive think about investing? What opportunities do we have? Right? And almost creating the profile for the team of people who we need to hire and then going out and making that investment case and then following through with it.

Shiv: Totally, yeah. That seems like a great place to end the episode, but before we do, where can people go to learn more about you and Summit?

Tim: Yeah, hit me on LinkedIn. My email address is tstrickland at summitpartners .com. You can hit me in both of those places and I'll get back.

Shiv: Awesome. And with that said, Tim, thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom. Very different kind of episode because normally we're talking about investment thesis and things like that. But in this case, a lot of the investors and founders that listen will learn how to optimize their companies better with this lens of how to get the people-side of the business. Right. So thanks for doing this.

Tim: Thank you Shiv, I appreciate it.