Episode 145: Stephen Gold of Ethos Capital on
Operator-Investors and the Acceleration Vector Methodology

Episode Transcript   

 

Shiv (00:10.702)

All right, Stephen, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Stephen (00:13.4)

Good, Shiv. Thanks. Great to be here.

Shiv (00:15.424)

Yeah, excited to have you on. Why don't we start with your background and ethos and let's go from there.

Stephen (00:21.538)

Yeah, so I I came up in in probably a non-traditional way from a PE point of view. I spent my life in technology as an operator, really split my time between being in the Valley, early stage growth-oriented companies, was part of two businesses. one was sold to to Oracle, the other was sold to Model N, which we subsequently took public. And

Like a lot of folks in technology, M&A is a a frequent outcome in activity. And as part of that, I got acquired in later on to IBM. And it was actually an incredible journey. I was fortunate that at a time when Watson was was just being introduced through research and it was a resurgence of AI and and the possibilities of artificial intelligence. And I spent the next decade.

decade IBM really working with an an amazing team to commercialize AI in a very formidable way, 10,000 engagements, six billion dollars, five years in the making. and left IBM after that period to become the first general manager for Honeywell's digital business or connected enterprise business. And again, amazing opportunity, incredible.

Company, but a very different industry. You know, when you come out of the industrials, things move at a different pace than technology. the the way technology gets integrated into the business is is very different. But it gave me a really good perspective, you know, of you know, the effects of industry, the introduction of technologies, the juxtaposition between

small companies on the West Coast and and more established fortune companies, you know, in other parts of the country. and so I felt very fortunate to have a very fulfilled career. And and as I kind of came, you know, towards, you know, the the question of what do I want to do next, through good fortune and a former colleague of IBM, I was introduced to Ethos Capital. And what's interesting is through the the days and

Stephen (02:46.322)

early days on the West Coast, I was exposed to both venture capital and and private equity. And my my perspective, you know, was probably more of a of traditional point of view. these entities existed to essentially fund the needs of of businesses. I never never really thought of them doing more. And as I talked to the the founders of Ethos Capital, to Erik Brooks and Fadi Chehadé,

They they open my eyes to an idea that you could marriage the operational intelligence with the investment acumen and create a better investment. I would I would argue a better investment strategy. Yeah, certainly one that I I think has worked very well for them. And I I originally was an advisor to the firm and and you know became now a partner of the firm and then about a year and a half ago.

stepped up as our chief value officer, you know, really trying to orchestrate and ensure that, you know, our commitment to the company was beyond capital. It it was it was really in the form of value add.

Shiv (03:58.605)

Mm-hmm. And c can you expand on that? What does that look like? And what is your methodology behind

Stephen (04:03.992)

Well, you know, we we we should probably step back, Shiv, and and you know, and share that. I think when you talk about value creation or value add among the, you know, among PE counterparts, everybody has a a a different idea of what constitutes value. And I think traditionally in private equity, a lot of that has been centered around financial engineering. thinking about, you know, how do I

You know, how do I defer expense? How do I maybe delay an acquisition that's not going to have immediate gratification and payback? How do I streamline operations to cut costs? All of those are reasonable in a traditional way. And certainly all of those, I would argue, benefit the shareholder because they are going to improve EBITDA. when we think about value creation from an ethos point of view, it it's really about creating.

Stephen (04:59.974)

a a sustainable, durable benefit to the business and and the business at large. So we think about stakeholders, we think about employees, customers, communities, partners, and with the belief that if we do that in a meaningful way, that it it it ends in a better business. And a better business just arguably it's going to have a higher valuation. So when we think about value creation, it's not just simply financial engineering.

It's transformational opportunities. How do you how do you change the game? How do you to reinvent the business in a way that's not just doing more of the same? It's not simply selling more of something. It's not simply adding a feature to a product. It's not simply opening an office. and we could we can get into some great examples, but it but it's truly, you know, step function changes. You know, taking a company we acquired that was on.

premise software solution and and transitioning them to be an in-cloud data platform. That that that that's fundamentally a shift that not only has in an inherent risks, but but you know it has certain unknowns. And it's really that the strength of of our organization, the depth of the expertise of the partners that give us confidence that that we can do

Shiv (06:38.784)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really interesting because a lot of firms that maybe are too focused on short-term outcomes may just jump to certain tactics like increasing pricing or cross-sell upsell as the value creation levers. But what you're describing is like really level setting and thinking about what's best for that business and then kind of figuring out which levers you actually need to pull. So can you can you expand on this a little bit more? Like what is your framework behind that and how do you figure out which

Stephen (07:06.435)

Yes.

Shiv (07:08.236)

Which areas require focus or which ones you're actually gonna like invest into?

Stephen (07:13.538)

Yeah. So we we've developed and and and I I should comment what I'm gonna describe has has really been, you know, part of our our DNA has part been part of our our framework from the get-go. What we've done though over the years is we really memorialized this into a more formalized process. So we call it our acceleration vector methodology. And you know, in that methodology, there's really four steps.

And and I'm smiling because when we started it, there was two, then there was three, now there's four. But it really moves from the process by which, and this starts even before we acquire a company, where we go through an ideation and try to identify what are all the possible acceleration vectors. So this is this is a roundtable exercise. Initially, it happens internally at ethos with the partners, and you surface.

All the expected acceleration vectors and then really some of these wild hair ideas. We then kind of go to the next step in that, in which we look to evaluate those vectors. And the way we do that is through a process we call fit: feasibility, impact, and time. And so we look at each of the vectors and we say, you know, is it feasible? And it's not simply a thumbs up, thumbs down. There are, I think there's 10 factors that affect feasibility.

You know, everything from, you know, is is the technology available to do what you envision? Is do you have the data? Do you have the talent? Can you make the investment? and so we go through this very thoughtful rubric and and determine, yes, it's feasible. the second part is if we do it, what's the benefit? What's the value? And obviously, if you determine that the value is insufficient, then you don't pursue that acceleration vector. But

Shiv (08:52.023)

Yeah.

Stephen (09:05.452)

Given that it's gonna have the desired effect and it's it's it's a formidable of value, then you move to time because the best of idea that's feasible that's gonna take you know four years may not be what you're going to pursue. And I think there is a balance, there's kind of short, medium, and long-term initiatives. And I think when we look at the fit, it allows us to compartmentalize, you know, where each of the acceleration vectors fit.

We we then move to kind of the execution. And this is always done with leadership. So we we we start independently, but then we actually run the ideation, you know, with leadership. We have leadership, you know, the portfolio, actually do the evaluation kind of independently and come back and and caucus and talk about it. and then, you know, we we support them in execution. And and this is probably a good place to introduce, I think, one of the things that makes ethos truly unique.

Is that in traditional PE, you you have obviously the investment community, and they augment that with operating partners. These are these are individuals that have been identified and play an advisory role and they sit on the bench and they're called in when needed. we don't have operating partners. We have partners that are operators. These these are full partners in the business. They are exclusive to ethos, they write a check on every single deal.

so they're investors in the fund and and in the actions that we take. and they have significant carries. So they, you know, you know, they put everything on the line. And the reason that's so important is that we don't have to go out to a to a consultancy, to a McKinsey or a Bain or a Booz and and and solicit third party expertise. We we really have a a level of expertise that I would argue is unparalleled.

Stephen (10:58.7)

among the PE communities. And I think it's one of the things that our LPs just love about the business. You know, it's it's the ex-CIO of Disney, it's the ex-CEO of Forbes, it's the former CMO of Verizon Media, it's the the individual who launched blockchain for for IBM. I mean, you know, you know, each of our each of our partners brings a core competency and and depth of expertise

That allows us to have confidence not only in making an investment, but actually in following through on these acceleration vectors. And so when we talk about execution as a stage, what we try to do is we try to identify and marriage the partners that can bring value to the leadership team. Ultimately, the portfolio is responsible for executing and delivering, but we want to give them every advantage in doing so.

And then the last step in the methodology is is really the feedback loop. It's it's the you know, the opportunity to cadence and talk about what's working and what's not working, what needs to be modified or tweaked. In fact, I just literally came from a call with one of our portfolio companies. And, you know, I think it's so rewarding for them to see the, you know, to see the benefits. It's it's kind of like doing the assignment, but what you really want to do is you want to get it back and see how you score it.

Stephen (12:26.542)

And you you want to see yourself progressing from a C plus to to a B to an A minus to an A plus. And and to bear witness because, you know, obviously leadership enjoys and reaps the rewards of the work that they do. And and these types of transformational shifts are are are meaningful. You know, our our management teams own a significant percent of the company. And so the type of upside that we can generate, you know.

it's it's financially rewarding, but I also would say personally, it's rewarding from a from a career experience development point of view.

Shiv (13:05.089)

Yeah. It's it's really interesting to hear you talk about that because it's more of like a more holistic approach and it really is incentivizing all the people inside your firm, inside the company, everybody to kind of win together and prioritize the right right things. Can you talk about the culture aspect of this? Like as a firm, how do you guys think about culture? Because it feels like it's more of a values driven approach than just thinking about alpha or like a spreadsheet to to drive returns.

Stephen (13:35.298)

Yeah. Well, I I think so so on the culture part of it, I would describe this as a a high performance culture built on, you know, exceptional talent, built on intellectual humility, mutual respect and you know alignment and commitment to to winning together. And and what that really looks like is is very much a a a family dynamic.

You know, everybody speaks their mind, everybody has a seat at the table. you know, there is no pecking order, there is no hierarchy. the the the the operating folks work you know interactively with the investment folks. it it truly truly is harmonious. And and it's funny when I talk to some of my counterparts that have taken on roles in value creation and other PE firms.

You know, you you can tell there's a little bit of disbelief. You know, like you know, it can't really work that way. You know, you know, tell me about how it how you manage investment committee. Well, we we don't have an investment committee. you know, literally, you know, the partners, the operating folks, the investment folks, the managed partners, we're we're all involved from the the very get-go in sourcing deals, in early due diligence.

in in progressing to a bid to to buying a company you know everybody's participating everybody's aligned and and the way that we do that which which is is so important is through technology we we developed our our and a home you know grew a product we call petra that helps everybody

To stay aligned, to have, you know, we all have the same information, we all have the same access. We, you know, it's an AI-based product. it's using agentic workflows to do a lot of the front-end analysis of of an opportunity. I mean, I literally can put in, you know, something as simple as a URL on a business and 20 minutes later, and it does take 20 minutes, it will come back with a very detailed analysis from over 50,000 sources.

Stephen (15:50.57)

And it will give me a summary of the company, the management, the product, the competition, the AI risks that are that are relevant. you know, it'll tell me what are the things that are missing that I need to go and ask for in terms of of data or know-how. And and that product Petra helps ensure not only do we do we work efficiently, but it helps ensure that all of us are on the same page. So when I get on a call with a partner.

Or I'm talking to a managing partner or someone from the investment team, I know that we we we we all have equal footings. We're all, you know, have access to the CIM, we all have access to the you know to whatever data has been shared with us. and and and that's something that we we weave into our our internal processes.

Shiv (16:43.222)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think I think that piece of just like having everybody on the same page is is a bit of a unique approach. I mean, even even like you mentioned the other operating partners at a different firm asking you how it actually works. I find that a lot of operating partner roles are not incentivized correctly because they're almost like employees. And so the employees they they have a job, but whether the company grows or not, they still have a job.

And I think sometimes the urgency is not there inside firms where operating partners are incentivized that way, versus somebody who actually has the upside and actually can focus on growing those companies and they get something out of it. I think they would approach certain things differently and it wouldn't be as passive as it is inside some firms.

Stephen (17:30.206)

A hundred percent that I mean the the the level of buy-in that occurs, you know, across the the ethos community is is incredible. And and and and it's also important, you know, I said everybody's got a seat at the table. That means for each opportunity, someone can stand up and and voice a concern or an objection and they're heard. And you know, I I I can tell you the discipline that we have.

You know, to to say no to a deal you know, comes from that that ability. You know, it's it's interesting as as an operator, having done many M&As, you know, you get so far into a deal that you just want to get the deal done. Right. Momentum carries you across a finish line. And you know, you get a pat on the back from the CEO for making it happen. That is not the case with with ethos.

Stephen (18:27.27)

first we're a concentrated fund. What does that mean? It means we're going to make one to two investments a year. Over the course of a fund, we're going to make five, six investments where a typical fund is going to make, call it 12. That means we we can't get it wrong, right? Those investments all have to work. Why, why do it then? Well, to deliver the type of value that we discussed.

To help a portfolio, to go through that methodology that we discussed. We've got to limit the number of investments or we're spreading ourselves too thin. So it's a necessary byproduct of our approach that we have to stay concentrated. And, you know, another great example is, you know, our portfolio companies are busy running a business. And yet, you know, there are market factors that

we can help them, you know, transition through. So for example, AI. Right? You can't have a conversation these days, obviously, without talking about artificial intelligence with a portfolio company, let alone a limited partner. And we we actually spent quite a bit of time, you know, thinking about this and and and you know developed a very strong point of view and actually now a framework about how how do we objectify in a way that's useful to the portfolio

Stephen (19:54.53)

how how to handle AI. And AI really comes down to two things, we realize opportunity and risk. And so we've developed this framework to think about, you know, how do you, you know, run a rubric to evaluate prospective deals, but also to help current deals look at that opportunity, you know, both from a, you know, are you ready to to act on it and and are you acting on it with with prudence and and with rigor?

And then also have you identified the risks and where are you? Right? It's not just about identification. It's about if you got to size the risk, you've got to put together a plan for mitigation. You got to execute the mitigation. You got to deal with market dynamics and adaptations. And and so we're we're constantly trying to put put in place is things that help our portfolio companies, that help our partners, that help our investment team.

think through, develop strategies, address real concerns. And then ultimately the end state, if you said, so what's the goal of all this? It it's to deliver, you know, outside, you know, outsized performance for the portfolio. And if we do that well, you know, our our LPs are happy. But more importantly, I would tell you the companies are happy, the management's happy, the you know, the employees, the customers, the partners again, the communities, you know, you know,

Stephen (21:18.936)

A rising tide lifts all boats, and that's really the objective.

Shiv (21:22.305)

Yeah. How closely are you working with the management teams? Because a lot of this planning, I would imagine, you need their buy-in on. So what does that dynamic or relationship look like as you're building this plan with your operating partners and your investment team and at the same time like you need them to be on board and I'm assuming they also have their own vision for how they want to grow this thing.

Stephen (21:47.02)

Yeah, you know, we we try to be very thoughtful up front on a deal when we go through the management meetings to share with them our our thinking, to share with them our process. Cause we appreciate it's it's not necessarily for everyone. And and if what we just, you know, describe to them about you know our approach, our value creation, our our use of partners, you know, doesn't resonate, that's okay. Then then it's not a deal we're gonna do. So hopefully by the time that we buy a company.

Management has, you know, signed up and subscribes to this idea of value creation. the way in which we we interact really depends on on the organization and our needs. So, you know, we will have obviously, you know, folks from a strategic point of view on the board. we will have partners assigned on on various projects to help, you know, facilitate. Like, well, one of our partners is extremely, extremely astute.

when it comes to the actual mechanics of using of artificial intelligence. So when you when you get into generative AI and you get into, you know, kind of the Gemini Claude, you know, open AI kind of discussions, you know, he he's living it. And so he he was up in Toronto recently or up Canada recently, working with one of the portfolio teams, engineering team, I'm thinking through a strategy of how agentic can be a key enabler. Well, I sure

Shiv (23:13.005)

Yeah.

Stephen (23:14.22)

They could have brought in a vendor, they could have brought in an AWS to do the same thing, but then you introduce bias. And so what we try to do is we try to use our partners in ways in which they provide an ongoing sustained role. Could be, hey, you know, we assign someone to coach the CEO, because everybody knows, you know, a CEO of a $50 million company and a $500 million company and a $5 million company.

It they have different core requirements on the CEO. So, you know, we may assign one of our folks that, you know, came out of leadership to to work with them on that journey rather than replace that CEO as so many I think companies do. you know, the project work like I just described could be a a marketing, you know, a marketing role, working with an RFP to revamp the narrative and branding. it could be a financial role to help them rethink.

their systems. It it it could be in in one of the cases, we're helping them now in the back office replace an ERP. The ERP they're on is is being sunseted, so they've got to make a transition. you know, so in that case, we we pulled in a couple of folks that I guess the CIO of Disney, the CTO of Wayfair, people that have been through back office transitions before. And so, you know, we we have that role for the partner. And then

Stephen (24:38.1)

On these value creation, we have standing calls monthly, you know, with the partner to kind of talk about the journey, where we're at, how we can help. You know, there isn't a discussion that I've been part of where it doesn't end with ethos saying, What what else can we do? How can we help? We don't run companies, we don't tell management how to run their company, we don't instruct them what to do. We we, you know, we really are there as a resource to them. And if we if we pick investments.

Smartly, I think management is very receptive and supportive of that partnership.

Shiv (25:14.934)

Yeah, I think I think that that's great. What what about on the value creation planning side? Like I'm assuming during the deal cycle you guys are trying to get on the same page and then you mentioned these acceleration vectors. And so how are you planning what things to prioritize with the management team when it comes to those areas?

Stephen (25:34.7)

So we have first is is a there's a little bit of education as to what exactly constitutes value creation, as we talked about earlier. Not everybody has the same ideas. We we certainly share with them the you know the methodology and that's all all documented and discussed. But then we bring everybody together physically in a workshop. So there's there's actually a a an A B workshop. it's at least a day, sometimes it's two.

Yeah, where we will go through a a very thoughtful process of surfacing what what are all of the the possible ways that we could invest and accelerate growth in the business? And from that, everything will be captured, will be documented, will be will be revisited and circulated to ensure accuracy. and then management.

Well we'll we'll give them the fit methodology. And the fit methodology is actually a scorecard of sorts where they go through each of the AVs, they go through each of the factors affecting fit, feasibility, impact, and time. And and they come up with a score. And then we come back together and we talk about based on that assessment, what are the priorities? And and if you think about it, you know, what guides priorities? A, it's got to be feasible. If it's not, it gets gets eliminated. B.

it's it's got to have demonstrable value. And and then C, you know, it's gotta be spaced in a way that, you know, some of the return happens sooner than later, but you you also got to be thinking that some of the investments that may take two or three years to mature are equally important. I think, you know, the the the risk in only focusing on short term is that, you know, but the the market, you know, supplants you because you're not thinking forward. So

We we come to this prioritization. that the next thing that happens is is, you know, we we regroup and and we talk, you know, very openly and pragmatically about, you know, what's it gonna take to actually do this? And we just had a discussion with one of the the CEOs. He said, Look at for me to do this, I need to invest, you know, you know, call it a million dollars. I don't have that budgeted. You know, and and so that becomes a discussion, you know, with us as a partner.

Stephen (27:58.054)

And you know, if if if it makes sense, if it's followed the process, if it if it's, you know, you know, worth doing, you know, we'll green light and say spend the money. You know, our approach typically is look at when we buy a company the first three years, we're we're arguably investing, not cutting. I mean, literally, you know, we're we're investing. Our EBITDA actually may go south, which

Stephen (28:24.044)

freaks a lot of I I think PE firms out that that, you know, wow, the EBIT has declined, but it's because you're investing back into the business. And we'll even give management a whole pass that says, look, it we're not gonna, we're not gonna ding you for that million dollars. Meaning you run the business, you'll have a set of of MBOs, KPIs, MIPS, whatever your criteria is.

And that's your bonus. And by the way, to the extent that the million dollars, you know, affects or impacts that, we'll we'll carve that out. We we don't want people to feel like, you know, focus on your short-term consideration personally in you know, at the expense of the long-term opportunity. And so I think you know, that that that series of interactions, those series of discussions, those workshops, those those debriefs, the documentation.

Help create a level of confidence and and and commonality of understanding that that you know you're you're you're underwriting what hopefully will be successful. And I say hopefully because we're also thoughtful knowing that with any of these acceleration vectors, some some can and some should fail. You know, it if the only things you do work, you're probably not stretching very hard. So

Shiv (29:45.186)

Yeah.

Stephen (29:46.146)

You know, we definitely have a a mindset as well, is that some of these may not work. And my our only ask there is if if we're if we're gonna find it doesn't work, let's find so let's find it out sooner than later. So let's let's really push on the boundaries of what we're doing. And again, you know, this is how this is how you create an environment of of innovation, of an environment of adaptation, an environment of collaboration that I think inures to the benefit of all parties.

Shiv (30:16.607)

Yeah, that's that's awesome. What are you guys doing when it comes to AI in terms of getting these companies ready for the next phase of their growth and whatever's evolving in their market?

Stephen (32:12.802)

Yeah, so so it's not a coincidence that six of our sixteen partners have a heavy, heavy background in AI. And and when when I say AI, not just the new framework of of agentic and generative, but dating back to machine learning and deep learning and natural language processing and computer vision, and bringing forward those experience and practices that they have seen in the past and and being able to to share those.

with the the portfolio leadership. So one of the things that we do that we just completed, we we just hosted a an AI workshop. And this wasn't just for the CIO, this was for senior leadership. And the goal of that was really to expose the art of the possible and and what it would take for a company to to activate and and you know really engage AI in a way that moves you beyond a a a proof of concept.

you know, into a proof of value into ultimately, you know, commercialization. and and so we we we host workshops, we do a lot of one-on-one sessions, you know, with the teams to help educate them on very specific aspects of of AI. we bring partners in. We just brought AWS in and you know, had them eff effectively bring forward a sandbox that allowed

What was about 50 developers to have access to the sandbox and their technologies, you know, with the understanding that we were really trying to to advance some of the initiatives that had surfaced as part of the the prior workshops. you know, the framework I referenced, we use that, we use that, you know, part of the framework is a two by two that really

you know, positions them against the market. So it helps them understand not only where am I on on my AI journey, but but how am I doing against my my peer group? And so again, we use our AI to develop a point of view on that two by two. And I think that opens the eyes of the leadership that says, you know, some cases are very hard on themselves that says I'm not doing enough. But then when they look at the two by two, they're saying, hey, but I'm a market leader. You know, other cases

Stephen (34:32.492)

You know, they they may, you know, say, look at I I feel like I could do more. And it turns out I'm a market laggard. And so, you know, we we use our methodologies to help inform them, to to help calibrate them. you know, the whole risk assessment, I had mentioned, we have a a list of, I don't know, right now it's about 150 AI related risks across categories, across sales and marketing and finance and logistics.

And we go through that with the management team to help them, you know, identify and more importantly, again, prioritize what are the risks. But what's interesting about risk that we found is that people tended to think about this in a way that was binary. And what we helped them to work through is that risks have different implications, right? Some are, you know, of a more critical nature, others are obviously less severe. But

But also not all of these are going to impact you tomorrow. You know, you need to stage this. You know, what are the near term risks? What are the midterm? What are long term? And helping management think through that we has proven to be invaluable because, you know, AI is changing so fast, it's coming at them that, you know, just the ability to to help them, you know, pause, think through, and come up with a plan. yeah, I mean, I I I would

I I would certainly share that when you look at, you know, the world at large, I think, you know, generally, I think companies have have struggled to commercialize AI. You know, I think we've seen it more in the consumer segment. We've seen it more with with with chatbots and recommendation engines. We've seen it with autonomous driving and other forms. But we we haven't really seen it as prolifically done in a successful way in in business.

Stephen (36:27.392)

And and that's really where we invest. And so, you know, this to me is a golden opportunity, you know, for us to to insert our partners, to insert our process, to help be responsive to the CEO of their team when it comes to to thinking through, understanding and applying AI in a meaningful way.

Shiv (36:51.136)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's that's great. I think that perspective is a is a healthy one because a lot of these transformations, like I see people being very reactive about AI, but really thinking about what it means for product, what it means for go to market and what you should really focus on, I think can move the needle more than kind of just chasing the shiny object that's kind of in front of companies now.

Stephen (37:13.518)

And and I think the you know the other part for us is when we start to think about a perspective investment, it it's helping helping internally our own folks, you know, think through the opportunity and risks of of an investment. I mean, there is no investment today that we look at that that doesn't have both. You know, early on, years ago, you might say, look, at AI is either an opportunity or it's a deterrent. Today it's both. And

Yeah, there's market disruption that that's that's caused by new entrants that are, you know, AI first companies. there's business model disruption that the way you used to charge for products is no longer I'll say feasible or acceptable in in an AI era. you know, you're redefining roles within businesses. You know, clearly marketing used to be responsible for content creation. Well, you know what?

one of the things AI is really good at it's content creation. So, you know, how do you rethink that that role? And I think helping, you know, and and our companies are are stars for talent, right? They're, you know, through these acceleration vectors, they're they're doing new things, they're growing, they're taking on new challenges. you know, anything that that helps facilitate getting things done, like AI enabled processes, is a huge benefit.

Shiv (38:37.556)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're coming up on time here, Stephen. I would love to kind of keep pressing, but just in the interest of time, if people do want to get in touch with you or learn more about ethos, what's the best way to do that?

Stephen (38:49.602)

certainly through our probably our website. there's there's you know a contact link in our website. you know, send a note to us. you know, we are, you know, very responsive. I'm I'm happy to to field you know any kind of inquiries or questions, and it's it's simply stephen.gold at ethoscapital dot com. and you know, we'll get back to them. I think our favorite thing, certainly one of my favorite things to do is just to to engage the community.

it through those discussions we learn, we become, you know, educated. you know, we we bring back knowledge that we impart among our partners and among the the portfolios. So absolutely Shiv. Anything we can do to encourage people to connect with us, we appreciate.

Shiv (39:37.568)

Awesome. Yeah, we'll be sure to include all of that on the links in the show notes. And with that said, Stephen, thanks for coming on and sharing your holistic vision and how you guys approach building companies at Ethos. I thought it was quite refreshing and I hope the audience took away from it as much as I did. So I appreciate you doing this.

Stephen (39:52.226)

Yeah, no, th thanks, Shiv. And and you know, thanks for the opportunity and love the you know love the conversation.

Shiv (39:59.684)

Thanks, man.